100% RH

chabriac
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100% RH

Post by chabriac » Tue May 22, 2012 3:58 am -1100

Hello
At first excuse my poor english :)
I'm trying to simulate an earth wall in Grenoble region in France.

At first i use the climate file from Wufi (Grenoble.WAC), but i'll like to use data from "météo france" closer to my real construction.

When I look RH data from this 2 files, i can see that in "Grenoble. WAC" RH never get over 97% but in my local file, RH often get to 100% (when it rains I suppose)

Of course it changes a lot the comportment of my wall, precisely the water content...

Is it normal to never get to 100%? ( a particularity of Wufi) or should I keep my local data.

Thanks for your help

Manfred Kehrer
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Post by Manfred Kehrer » Tue May 22, 2012 4:53 am -1100

Hello Chabriac,

If these differences do really have an impact on your final results then you should use the "100%" values just to be on the safe side. These RH measurements are typically carried out with capacitive sensor which have an accuracy of +-3%RH. If they are long time exposed to high RH they also start to drift.
Manfred
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Thomas
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Re: 100% RH

Post by Thomas » Tue May 22, 2012 6:10 am -1100

chabriac wrote:Is it normal to never get to 100%? ( a particularity of Wufi) or should I keep my local data.
Hi chabriac,

this has nothing to do with WUFI; it probably depends on how the weather data have been measured.

I, too, have noticed that sometimes in weather data for locations from the same region, one file may have no relative humidities exceeding, say, 98%, while another file may often have humidities of 100%. I think the main reason for this is simply the limited accuracy of the usual humidity sensors. One of our technicians once told me that the capacitive sensors which are used in most meteorological stations can easily be off by several percent, in particular in very humid or very dry conditions. So I think that in most cases these differences at humidities close to 100% are simply slight miscalibrations of the sensors (these sensors tend to have some calibration drift, as Manfred has already pointed out.)

I'm not sure if the humidity routinely reaches 100% when it rains. When the rain water (coming from cooler regions of the atmosphere) is cooler than air temperature, its vapor pressure must be lower than the saturation vapor pressure of the ambient air, and the relative humidity must remain below 100%. On the other hand, if the rain water is falling on a warm surface (e.g. an asphalt road), it may become warmer than the ambient air and thus even supersaturate the air (leading to small vapor plumes above the road surface). However, if relative humidity always reached 100% during a rain event, you would always see some condensation on all surfaces which are slightly cooler than the ambient air. This does not seem to be the case usually, so I suppose that the humidity, while indeed rising strongly, rarely reaches 100%.

You will have 100% in fog.

As Manfred suggests, you may use the weather data with the higher humidity to be on the safe side. However, I'm a bit surprised that the results for your wall react so sensitively when a relatively small change in the weather data is made. Yes, the water content of your wall at 100% RH will be very different from the water content at 97% (the moisture storage function being very steep in this region), but it should also take your wall a long time to reach free saturation (the water content at 100% RH) if the humidity can only be added by vapor diffusion (the relative humidity of the ambient air drives vapor diffusion, not capillary transport). Therefore, it should not make much of a difference whether the wall is exposed to 100% or only 97% for a few hours during the nights. I suspect that there might be another reason why the weather files lead to such different results.

Regards,
Thomas

chabriac
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Post by chabriac » Tue May 22, 2012 7:15 pm -1100

Precisely it is one of my questions :
When HR = 100% , it become liquid water (on the wall surface), so I supose I have vapor diffusion and capillary transport > that's why my wall looks like a sponge..

I will precise today by experiment my liquid transport coefficient. I could try better simulation.

Tanks for your help

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Wed May 23, 2012 5:32 am -1100

chabriac wrote:When HR = 100% , it become liquid water (on the wall surface), so I supose I have vapor diffusion and capillary transport > that's why my wall looks like a sponge..
Yes, at 100% relative humidity you will also have capillary transport in your material, but please note:

Even with capillary conduction being active in the material, the moisture content can only increase by moisture being transported towards the material from the ambient air, and this transport still only happens by vapor diffusion in the air. So this can't be a mechanism for the wall to "suck" moisture out of the air.

And because capillary transport is much more efficient than diffusion transport, any high moisture content that might occur at the surface will be drawn into the material much faster than it can be replaced by diffusion from the ambient air, so a high moisture content at the surface will be very short-lived unless you have really strong condensation (or rain).

Is your wall exposed to rain? Is the "explicit radiation balance" activated in your simulations, that is, do you allow condensation at the wall surface?

Regards,
Thomas

chabriac
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Post by chabriac » Thu May 24, 2012 4:03 am -1100

Is your wall exposed to rain? Is the "explicit radiation balance" activated in your simulations, that is, do you allow condensation at the wall surface?
yes my wall is exposed to rain but if i shut down "coefficient de pénétration de l'eau de pluie " in "coefficients surfaciques" thers isn't any big change
I try to change my KLI file with rain = 0 all the time, the wall is still a big sponge.

I try with and without "excplicit radiation balance " no big difference
Where can i found more information about this element?

Next week I will have more expriment results (A-value). I hope it could be better...

Other question: what do the paramaters of a Wac file means?

WD ?
WS ?
WV ?
RN(rain)
PSTA(atmosphère pressure)
TA (temperature)
HRE (humidité relative)
ISDH ?
ISD ?
ILAH ?

chabriac
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Post by chabriac » Thu May 24, 2012 4:40 am -1100

I just try another think
I use WAC file instead of KLI file, and i don't have any problem now...

thanks for your help guys

chabriac
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Post by chabriac » Sun May 27, 2012 9:28 pm -1100

Hello just another question
with the file "CreateClimateFile.xls", i can genrate WAC files for my climate but Only with 2 data : temp and HR
Is it possible to generate a WAC with more datas (radiation, rain....)

Other question: what do the paramaters of a Wac file means?

WD ?
WS ?
WV ?
RN(rain)
PSTA(atmosphère pressure)
TA (temperature)
HRE (humidité relative)
ISDH ?
ISD ?
ILAH ?

Thank you very much

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Mon May 28, 2012 10:26 pm -1100

chabriac wrote:I use WAC file instead of KLI file, and i don't have any problem now...
In the 'rain' and 'radiation' columns, the KLI format expects those components of rain and radiation which are vertically incident on the facade, not the rain and radiation as incident on a horizontal surface which are usually given in weather files supplied by meteorological stations. If you didn't convert rain and radiation for your (presumably vertical) wall, it could not work...
with the file "CreateClimateFile.xls", i can genrate WAC files for my climate but Only with 2 data : temp and HR
Is it possible to generate a WAC with more datas (radiation, rain....)
Click on the header cells to the right of temperature and RH and select whatever you want. The demo films may be helpful:
http://www.hoki.ibp.fhg.de/wufi/demofilme_e.html
Other question: what do the paramaters of a Wac file means? WD ? WS ? ...
Please see the description of 'The *.WAC Format for Climate Data' in WUFI's online help.

Regards,
Thomas

chabriac
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Post by chabriac » Mon May 28, 2012 10:49 pm -1100

Click on the header cells to the right of temperature and RH and select whatever you want. The demo films may be helpful:
I understand that, but when i click on "Export to WAC. file" he create the file but only with two column even if i have 4 column data.
I've got the 2.0 version is there a more recent version?

Regards

Thomas
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Post by Thomas » Mon May 28, 2012 11:58 pm -1100

chabriac wrote:I understand that, but when i click on "Export to WAC. file" he create the file but only with two column even if i have 4 column data.
I've got the 2.0 version is there a more recent version?
2.0 is the current version. Did you fill in both header cells for each new column? For example, if you select 'Rain' in the upper header cell, you also have to select either 'Normal Rain' or 'Measured Rain' in the lower header cell.

Regards,
Thomas

chabriac
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Post by chabriac » Tue May 29, 2012 3:31 am -1100

I try again with the file from tools and it works....
a problem with excel i think
thanks for help..

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Post by Manfred Kehrer » Tue May 29, 2012 5:50 am -1100

It may be problem with adding/deleting rows/columns as well.
Manfred
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Re: 100% RH

Post by olivir » Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:14 am -1100

But, chabriac, which datas did you use for earth material ? Is there something in WUFI ?

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Re: 100% RH

Post by olivir » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:14 am -1100

Some one from Wufi team ? :)

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